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Student & Alumni Panel: What Students with Disabilities Want Faculty & Administrators to Know [TRANSCRIPT]


HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the second of Sloan-C 2013 Accessibility Webinar Series. For this webinar, we have our student and alumni panel with the topic, What Students with Disabilities Want Faculty and Administrators to Know. And we have a wonderful group of panelists today. But I would like to first thank to our sponsors– 3Play Media, Perkins eLearning, and University of Illinois College of Education for sponsoring this webinar series and for their contributions.

We are very fortunate to have Kristen Betts, our Director of Online and Blended Learning at Armstrong Atlantic State University and as a co-moderator, our Chief Knowledge Officer Janet Moore as our moderators today. And with that, I would like to now hand microphone over to Dr. Betts so that she can introduce our panelists and best practices commissions today. Kristen, the floor is all yours. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Sharon. And I want to thank all of you for attending today’s session. What we’re going to do to begin is we’ll look just briefly at our panelists here and introduce them, because we’re going to have a more detailed introduction in just a minute. We have Daniel Veit, who is currently a master’s student in a higher education program at Drexel University. He is also working with Texas School for the Deaf.

We have Alex Cohen, who is a graduate from the Master’s of Science program at Drexel University and a current Ph.D. Student at Drexel University. Henry Alphin, who also has his master’s degree from Drexel University and is working at Drexel University currently in Information Technology Services. And Dominique Williamson, who is currently an undergraduate student at Columbus State University, taking online and blended courses, and he’s a retired US veteran.

Our agenda is going to be very focused on the speakers, so we will spend some time in terms of the panel introduction so you can learn more about the academic, professional, and personal backgrounds of our panelists. We’ll then have just two questions. The first question being what faculty and administrators need to know about accessibility in working with students with disabilities. The second question, strategies to increase online students’ success.

And then we will open up the floor to questions and answers at the last 20 minutes of the session. The chat– if you would like when we began the second part of the presentation with the second question, you can start typing questions in. And we will certainly move those forward so we can ask our panelists. One thing I encourage you to think about, while the questions are the same, listen to the breadth of the responses, because for each student there’ll be similarities as well as differences.

Disability Trends Worldwide

We wanted to start off with just some global and national data. Couple of things to consider. There’s a wonderful report that came out from the World Health Organization in 2011. In it stated that we have over 285 million individuals worldwide who are visually impaired. 39 million of these individuals are blind. We have 246 million individuals who have moderate to serious severe visual impairment.

Rising Disability in the United States

When we look within the United States, 48 million Americans have significant hearing loss either in one ear or both ears. And an interesting quote here– “Nearly one in five Americans age 12 and older experience hearing loss severe enough to interfere with day-to-day communication.”

Some national data as well– approximately 20% of US population report having a disability. And for individuals who may not be involved in the Office of Disability Services may be in a different role. These numbers are based on self-reporting. 10% of individuals in the United States self-report either an individual or a hidden disability, and we’ll talk more about that in minute.

11% percent of our higher education [INAUDIBLE] population, with regard to students, report having a disability. And it’s often stated that this number is not as high as educators would assume it would be. And lastly, we have no available data in regards to our online students who have disabilities.

With regard to veterans, something to consider– online programs are certainly going out and marketing to veterans, as are most colleges and universities. What we need to think about in particular– disabilities that veterans may have. If you look at the statistics here, it is going to really be something institutions need to look at across multiple services. So 45% percent of the 1.6 million veterans that are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan were seeking disability.

What’s interesting is, they said earlier on, eight to nine disability claims were being reported by veterans. And now with the new veterans who are coming back, they’re claiming 11 to 14 disabilities. When you look at the overall number of veterans who sought VA care, you have approximately 156 are blind. Thousands with impaired vision. You have hearing loss. You have 350,000 who report tinnitus. Tens of thousands they talk about in terms of reporting traumatic brain injury. And then when you look at post traumatic stress disorder, you also have almost a half a million.

One thing to think about, especially as we begin this presentation today, is there is a spectrum within the area of disabilities. So while we may look globally at the fact that 39 million individuals are blind, there’s a very large spectrum in terms of visual impairment. Hearing impairment is as shown on the previous slides.

I brought up this photo here of all the students who are presenting today, because we want to make sure that we don’t lose sight of the fact that we’re talking about students. It’s so easy to read the literature and look at the statistics, or maybe hear somebody say, well it’s 3% of the population. What are the chances of– well, the fact is, every student that we serve within higher education is part of our mission– part of our outreach. And that’s part of our higher education commitment. So if you go through this presentation, I’d like you to consider any of these students potentially being a student in your online classroom.

So as we go through, we’re going to get back to Daniel Veit in just a minute. We have our interpreters are going to be joining us in just a minute. We’re going to begin with Alex Cohen. As I mentioned, he’s currently a doctoral student. He has his MS from Drexel University, his Bachelor of Science from University of Nevada. In terms of his professional overview, I’m going to have Alex tell you about himself academically, professionally, and personally. So Alex?

Alex Cohen

ALEX COHEN: Yes, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Alex Cohen, and about 18 years ago, when I was attending the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, I was diagnosed with a degenerative retinal disease called retinitis pigmentosa. Over that time period, I’ve been slowly robbed of my vision, so now I am legally blind.

Despite this, I had spent 17 years thriving in the hospitality industry, holding positions as a director of sales and marketing, general manager, and eventually vice president of an ultra luxury management property group. And through this time, I never allowed my vision to get in my way for any of my professional success. Unfortunately, the economy in 2007, 2008 did, and I decided to go back to school.

Making and considering the choices that I had in selecting a master’s program, I decided that the online MS in Hospitality Management at Drexel best suited my needs, as I do live in downtown Philadelphia and I have a wife who loves her job and works in the evenings. And I had two small children at home. And so being older, having certainly some different responsibilities as I did as an undergrad, the flexibility of this program really was the primary consideration for me.

My visual impairment never even really crossed my mind until I decided to contact the Office of Disability Resources here at Drexel University and see everything that was available to me. Upon completion of my master’s program, I did decide to continue on, and now I am a first year doctoral student at LeBow College of Business and Marketing here at Drexel University.

Henry Alphin

KRISTEN BETTS: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Alex. What we’re going to do is we will move on now to Henry Alphin. And Henry is joining us. I have some clips that Henry has provided for us, and I’m going to save the clips for some upcoming slides. And in terms of Henry, as I mentioned, he completed his Master’s of Science in the Higher Education program at Drexel University, a fully online program. He is currently an MBA student at the Warwick Business School, and also completed his BS in economics at Drexel University.

He is currently working as a business analyst at Drexel, and also with information technology services. And he is a higher education researcher. I have two pages down below, if you’d like to learn more about Henry. Lots of publications that he has as well. So we will listen to some of the clips that he has provided in just a minute.

Dominique Williamson

And this point, I will move on to Dominique Williamson and ask him to provide his introduction.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Dominique Williamson. I’m a 20 year retired veteran from the United States Army. While serving in the military, I had the misfortune of getting injured in Afghanistan with some internal psychological and physical injuries. Upon my retirement, I decided to go back to school to finish my degree that I started. And in doing this, I realized that there was significant challenges, and we will discuss a lot of those as the webinar procedures. But hopefully the insight that we as soldiers will be able to bring to this forum will be something that will be able to benefit everyone in the near future. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Dominique. So at this point, what we’re going to do is we’re going to move onto our first question. And we’ve asked each of our panelists to answer what faculty and administrators need to know about accessibility and working with students with disabilities. So I am going to move on, and I’m going to ask Alex Cohen to provide what he believes faculty and administrators need to know from his perspective. Alex?

Creating Accessible Lectures

ALEX COHEN: OK. Now, it’s important to remember that when I first began my online program, this was a brand new program at the college, and what I found was the lectures that were recorded over a PowerPoint using embedded video were a wonderful tool. However, it did not work with any of my screen-reading technology. So for example, if there were notes that I needed to go back to review, or any assignments that were posted via this video, it was an impossibility for my screen reader to recognize the text on such videos. So that was quite problematic, as all of my courses did have this.

Now, upon request, the PowerPoints were provided to me, and all the professors and everybody were particularly helpful once the problem was brought to light. Additionally, in using an online learning platform, there are many other– there’s a much larger use of videos to meet learning objectives. Now, some of these videos could be interviews or documentaries and be much more verbal, and the learning objectives would not be missed without sight.

However, there were several videos where there was no dialogue and it was simply captions on the screen. And again, even pausing the video, screen readers do not read text on video. So at certain points in time, the learning objectives could be lost depending upon the videos used.

Creating Accessible Software Training Videos

Additionally, navigating around third party sites that really had nothing to do [INAUDIBLE] with the actual online platform. But for example, using something like EndNote, which is really a magnificent tool for reference and research. What I found was all of the training videos were simply that– videos. And they were not accessible– were not able to be used by any of my screen readers. And often, the dialogue in such videos would be, simply if you click over here, or click this button, this is how to proceed. And without sight and without the use of screen readers, I felt quite vulnerable for the training.

There are many third-party sites that you need to investigate in terms of research, resources, and finding information out there. And they are not always immediately accessible. And even with the help of ODR, who does an absolutely magnificent job in converting materials to make them more accessible, there’s not always the expedience in getting the instantaneous information that you need to complete your assignments.

Additionally, when these problems were brought up with my professors, everybody was really, truly fantastic and willing to help. As I mentioned, it was a new program, where many of these problems just weren’t even considered. And nobody ever acted as if I was attacking their pedagogical efficiency or integrity. They just wanted to help. And the online environment really provided wonderful access to these materials. But these three problems were something that really carried on throughout the program.

KRISTEN BETTS: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Alex. What we’ll do is we will move on. And I have a clip from Henry that I’m going to share with you. So let me pull up this clip. I’m going to do screen share. And pull this up– and here we go. All right.

Online Learning & Universal Design

HENRY ALPHIN: As an online student, I have had several difficult experiences related to my speech impediment. First, I have consistently had trouble using the audio discussion boards. In Drexel’s MSAT program, we had five minutes to discuss key learning points absorbed in the course. We also used noise boards and podcasts to provide an audio critique for other students regarding projects in various assignments.

Yet the voice boards on Blackboard had no editing functions. This means that I would have five minutes to express my thoughts, and accordingly I would re-record the posting until I was content with the outcome in one take. This could– and has– taken hours. On a broad scale, the challenges when a lack of available resources for students with disabilities in online learning. Unless there is a universal design process which promotes accessibility as a culture, then individual students have to self select and report their issues in order to receive assistance.

This is generally the case with brick-and-mortar programs as well, but the very existence of e-learning provides an outlet for many disabled students to obtain a university education.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Henry, for what you’ve had to share. And again, consider all of these students as potential students in your course. So as we go forward developing our courses, these are things certainly to have at the forefront. So I’m going to move on, and I’m going to ask Dominique. I’m going to give him the mic and have him share what he believes faculty and administrators need to know from his perspective.

Veteran Students with Disabilities

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Yes, good afternoon again. I’m going to speak primarily from a soldier’s and veteran’s standpoint. One of the things that I believe that faculties and administrator needs to know up front is that most veterans, due to the fact that we are starting school and a later age than the average students– it is anywhere between 21 and age 40 that we decide to go back to school to get our degree. There’s a sense of reluctance there. And because of that reluctance, a lot of times we tend to shy from bringing forth the situation that we most need help in.

And so what I believe that the faculty and administrators need to know, they need to first of all recognize that they have a lot of veterans that’s coming back that deals with multiple forms of PTSD and TBI issues. Some of them are memory lost. And so with understanding these disabilities, it will give the administrator and the faculty the foresight to be more aggressive in reaching out to the veteran that might be reluctant to asking for that help themselves. I think that’s the first thing that we need to do.

Secondly, most veterans, we have a significant amount of medication that we take to deal with some of these symptoms that we’re going through. Whether it might be Zoloft, for anti-depressions. Whether it might be narcotics for the excessive amount of pain that we’re having. So having an understanding of that will help the administrator to deal with the veteran as they’re going through these.

I’ll give you a real example. While taking my classes, while I was online, there were times when– because of the significant amount of medication that I was on, it will cause me to get so drowsy that I could not fulfill my classroom obligation. So with my teacher having the insight of that, they were able to allow me to finish at a different time when I was not as drowsy, instead of just thinking that I just disregarded them teaching that particular lesson. So that was very helpful in that case.

Also, I’m a mixed student– online and in classroom. When sitting in the classroom, one of the things that we do is try to position ourselves up front so that we can watch the teacher’s lips to try to aid in our understanding. Because I suffer from tinnitus, so I always have a ringing in my ears. So looking at the teacher’s lips will help me. With the faculty being knowledgeable of that, instead of turning their back to the chalkboard while they’re talking, they’re a little bit more apt to face the classroom and pronounce their words a little better. And more adamant, so that we can grasp everything that they’re saying.

And lastly, when you’re doing classes online, just to ensure that the material are large enough. And when we’re doing stuff like the webinar, make sure that they speak clearly, so that we can fully understand them. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Dominique. Alex, did you want to say anything about that as well in terms of the materials being large enough?

E-learning, Universal Design & Visual Disabilities

ALEX COHEN: Well, the materials– sometimes what is provided really makes a difference within the format. For example, at times, you would get a certain graphic, or graphs or charts or very small print that would not be able to be– for me– either enlarged or read by my screen reader. So just paying attention to the content, as well as the color schematic. For example, I still have some vision, and I can see better when I have a white bold writing on a black background. So nobody wants to sit through a boring, graphic-less, colorless PowerPoint, but sometimes the color blends really make it almost impossible to see.

KRISTEN BETTS: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Alex. I know we had commented on that earlier.

What I’d like to do right now is we have Daniel who has joined us, so I am going to have Daniel provide his introduction. As I mentioned, Daniel Veit is currently a student of the Master’s of Science in Higher Education program at Drexel University. I’ve been very fortunate to work with Daniel, Alex, Henry, and also made Dominique’s acquaintance through the University of Georgia.

So Daniel will give you some information about his educational background, his professional overview, and then what we’ll do is we’ll move right on to Daniel’s response to the question that you just listened to. So I’ll turn my talk button off, and we’ll begin with Daniel.

Daniel Veit

DANIEL VEIT: Hello? Can everyone hear me? I hope so. I finally have my voices here today, and my few interpreters have just arrived. I know we are in different time zones.

So again, my name is Daniel Veit. And I want to give just a brief background of myself. I am deaf and I use sign language as my primary language of communication. English is my second language. I grew up, K through 12, I went to public school, where I was in mainstream. And I would make use of an interpreter during classrooms.

After high school, I went to Gallaudet University in Washington, DC. Some people know that as the only deaf university. And it is. All teachers sign, and all other classes, students sign. So there’s full access. They don’t really use interpreters in those situations, and I didn’t use interpreters in my four years. I got my Bachelor’s in Communication, and after that, I went to work at a New Mexico School for the Deaf. I worked there for four years, and then I went back to my alma mater. And I was a consultant at Gallaudet for six years.

And that’s when I decided to start thinking about going back to school for my master’s degree. I decided to find a university with a higher education– so that I can continue my higher education, sorry.

Now, my first time I used online, this was through this university, so that was a new experience for me. And so that’s it. That’s my introduction.

KRISTEN BETTS: Wonderful. Thank you, Daniel. And I’m going to bring you up to speed with our questions in terms of what faculty and administrators need to know from your perspectives.

Designing Online Courses for the Deaf

DANIEL VEIT: Sure, well thank you. Really, I just finished my thesis for my master’s degree. And that was the theme that I had– deaf students that took classes online. And there was a few interesting findings with that study. First of all, I think everyone needs to know that I’m not speaking in behalf of all deaf. This is my own experience.

And there was a– had a population of deaf. For instance, there was a group of deaf who grow up using oral communication in their education. And they did well. They were very successful. However myself, I don’t speak very well. That’s why I use sign language as my mode of communication. Some went to public school in the mainstream. And then there was a deaf who were in the residential programs.

And so everyone is different. So some deaf and hard of hearing have actually lost their hearing at a later time in their lives. So they require different ways of communicating. So the question that you asked about learning style, that’s really– a high percent of people who participated in my visual– who are visual students. And a lot of deaf, that was not really surprising for me. Because that’s how I– I’m a very visual learner.

Now, as far as reading the transcripts, and that was– also, a lot of the context was auditory based. The lectures and PowerPoints with voiceovers. Myself being deaf, I couldn’t listen to what the voiceover was, but I can– imagine yourself watching TV with no voice on there. It’s really hard to follow everything. And that’s what it was like for me when I first started in the studies. Now, they did provide a transcript, and that changed. And that required more reading. And so that conflicted with most deaf studies. That deaf students who– in their learning style.

Also, another point that I would like to make is that for myself growing up in K through 12, I had– IDEA Law provides services for students with disabilities. And that was mandated that the school must provide accommodations for students. So that was a new experience for me. I never had to go to an office for disabilities and request accommodations before. And [INAUDIBLE] Once I went into Gallaudet University, I didn’t need to make those requests for accommodation. Because I had direct communication with all my professors.

Students with Disabilities & Self Advocacy

And then when I decided to go to Drexel University, again that was the first time that I really had to be a self-advocate and request for accommodations for myself. And I had to learn that process. And that was something that no one really ever taught me that skill. And it was something that I had to learn and develop that as a students with disabilities. And it really required that I be a self-advocate.

And then the third thing I wanted to emphasize was that even though sign language was my first language and English was my second, during my studies– and a lot of students would agree with this, that they felt that English was their second language– and when I took the online courses, everything was in English. So imagine yourself taking a class in French. And I felt comfortable with my second language, but it wasn’t really my native language.

That required me– it took me longer to write papers and essays, and really make sure everything worked out in English. And it’s important that the faculty and administration know to keep those issues in mind when dealing with students with hearing loss.

Strategies to Increase Student Success in E-learning Programs

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Daniel. What we’re going to do is we’re going to move on to our next question. And our next question is looking at strategies. So we’ve asked all of our panelists to provide strategies to assist institutions to increase online student success for students that have disabilities. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to move first to Alex. And so Alex, we’re going to begin with you. So we’ll start with Alex in terms of strategies, and I’m going to– [INAUDIBLE] do this, because we just had Daniel speaking. And I’m going to get back to Daniel. So I’ll ask Daniel if he wants to mute his mic, and then we’ll ask Alex to provide his strategies.

ALEX COHEN: I don’t know if we want to move the slide ahead.

KRISTEN BETTS: Yeah. I got it right here, Alex. Right on yours. So if you are ready, Alex, I’ve got your slide pulled up. Just looking at the strategies to increase online student success when you’re ready.

ALEX COHEN: Well, the first thing that I would recommend is to provide one stable resource throughout the university, where people can go with the questions they may have. For example, what I’ve learned here at Drexel is this truly is a community and collaborative effort. So whether it’s just professors and advisers, people at the library should be aware of certain accessibility issues, as well as students. And so if any questions or anything of that nature do come up, students and professors and any other staff do have that one stable source where, you know, that is an amazing question. I haven’t been asked that before, and I know exactly where to find that information.

Accessible Course Information Requires Multiple Formats

The second is to be aware of the accessibility of content. For example, I was so, so excited when I first got my package welcoming me. It had all of this information telling me all about campus, online, and everything that there was to know about becoming a brand new master’s student. And it was all on paper. So I certainly just made a call to the Office of Disability Resources, and they were able to provide me all of those materials online, so that I could actually use them with my screen readers. And it really made the welcome experience that much more welcoming as the materials were accessible.

This also is applicable for any type of training for the online programs. For example, I had mentioned previously about using the EndNote video web training. A lot of programs use similar training. And for the visually impaired, it’s all but useless when the instructions are not either readable through a screen reader or the language that is used within that instruction is just too heavy on visual acuity. And less on content.

The Office of Disability Services & Providing a Better Student Experience

And also to monitor changes with students with disabilities. For example, I have a degenerative condition. And when I first started my master’s program, I was using one particular kind of screen reader. And as my vision worsened, I realized that I needed different services and I might need something a little bit stronger.

So for example, I currently use three different screen readers on my system. One is absolutely terrific for reading textbooks and articles. Another is much better for surfing the web. And the third screen reader that I use, for example, is much better at reading mathematical equations. Most screen readers don’t recognize either summation signs or Greek letters, or offer inflection when recognizing the difference between a capitalized or italicized letter.

So by keeping the Office of Disability Resources appraised of this– and again, all of this is a collaborative effort. It really will help the students and actually help the Office of Disability Resources– and therefore the university– provide a better, more robust experience.

And finally, I had the good fortune with a number of my professors, where I learned that as you progress through education– in undergraduate, it was really just learn the material, get tested on it, and move on to the next class. The master’s program is a little less like that. It’s more get the learning objectives that you’re trying to get. Align the course’s learning objectives with your own. And doing this, from time to time there were assignments that might not be accessible. And so I would bring us to the attention of the professor.

And the worst thing that they could do this is to say, you know, don’t worry about it, or just write a paper. Do something extra.

No, I really would like to have this experience. Let’s find a way to do this and work it out. And just with a little bit of thought, an alternative could always be reached. And I felt in many ways that I was receiving the same attentiveness and then the same robust educational experiences as everyone else. So really, I think my experience has provided me that I need to be my own strongest advocate. People are out there to help, but nobody knows.

Creating a Conversation Around Accessibility

Nobody’s trying to be unkind or cruel by making something inaccessible. What I have come across in my travels is that people just don’t know. They hadn’t considered it, and hadn’t even realized that accessibility is something that needs to be considered. But overall, this was an amazing experience for me. The Office of Disability Resources here at Drexel has been an amazing partner, and continues to be amazing partner throughout now my doctoral program.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Alex. And I am going to do the screen share, and I’ve got it set up so I should be able to just pull up this one video. And we’re going to hear what Henry has to share. And I’m going to bring up his slides in just a second.

Analyzing Student Capabilities and Limitations

HENRY ALPHIN: I have three tips for disabled college students enrolled in online courses and programs. But these tips are mostly for those who have yet to self-select as disabled. First, be honest with yourself. Know your capabilities and limitations. Drexel has a 15-minute rule regarding technology. If you get stuck on a Drexel-related software roadblock, then you should no longer waste your time. You should seek assistance from the experts.

It would be wise to treat a disability in the same manner. If you are unable to perform the task required of an online course because of your disability, then you have to let the institution know and seek assistance. In the same vein, if you educate yourself on available institutional resources, including tutoring, research assistants, including use of the library and your institution’s Office of Disability Services, then it will be that much easier to reach out for assistance. The sooner that your situation can be documented, the better positioned you will be to obtain structured assistance.

Lastly, pace yourself. As a person who stutters, I know that infiltration, such as lack of sleep and also burn out, tend to make my condition worse. We can only do so much in a given day, week, or lifetime. Structure your day so that you can perform well in each of your tasks, especially when you are a disabled college student navigating the learning environment.

KRISTEN BETTS: So I want to thank Henry for what he shared in these video clips. He took a lot of time out to make sure he was able to share his information with each of you. I’m also very excited to share that not too long ago, Henry did a voice recorded PowerPoint presentation as part of an international conference and his session was chosen as one of the top in the international conference. So with utilizing support services, our students are doing unbelievable things nationally and internationally. And you’ll get a copy of all of these slides, so you’ll have all of the written tips along with the audio as well.

Increasing Online Learning Success for Veterans

So Dominique, I’m going to turn the mic over to you, and then what we’ll do is we’ll go back to Daniel. And that way, we’ll be able to have Daniel’s interpreters provide the responses that he had for us regarding the strategies as well.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Hello again. A few points that I would like to add that will increase the online success of the veterans that suffer disability. I believe first and foremost that each college, professors and staff should have some type of veteran committee counsel set up that allows them to understand the adjustments that veterans deal with as they’re trying to proceed in getting a higher education. I believe this should be the first and foremost thing.

Secondly, I believe that when we’re doing our assignments, one thing that teachers should be cognizant of is that dealing with migraine headaches and TBI, there’s certain colors that will trigger those symptoms to cause the veterans to start having those adverse effects. So one thing that they probably should do is get a better understanding on what TBI is, or the symptoms that the veteran might be facing. So that when they pull something for us to read, the colors does not trigger the wrong response, therefore putting us at a disadvantage. Because now we’re dealing with the memories that we have gone through.

Also, if they could be very flexible with the assigned turn-in policy, I think that will aid in our success. Oftentimes when I’ve taken classes before, there’s a hard date for when every assignment is due. But if they can put in a factor that there might be some symptoms that might have taken place. That might cause us to not be able to turn it in at– let’s just use for a time, 5 o’clock on a Monday. If we were down for a symptom that caused us to be out of it for several hours. And we were not able to finish that assignment because we were dealing with some medical issues, if they will be flexible enough– within reason, of course– flexible enough for us to turn in our assignments instead of getting dinged on it because we were dealing with some medical situation.

Also, when we look at the assignments– the posting the assignment in a timely manner. Sometimes the teachers, they don’t necessarily post it as urgent as we would like them to post it. And so it causes us to rush to try to turn our assignment in. The other day we had a teacher that gave us an assignment just a few hours before the assignment as due, and then they modified it. That put the whole class at a disadvantage, but even more so those that were already dealing with the problems that we’re going through already.

And lastly, I would like to talk about modification in some of the reading projects. In one of the classes that I was taking, one of the classroom reading assignments that the teacher handed out was a war novel that deal with some very explicit and vivid details of the tragedies of wars. As I began to read that particular book, all of a sudden I was overwhelmed with emotions and memories of what took place while down range in Afghanistan.

I could no longer read the book, so I went to the teacher and I asked permission to disengage myself from that particular classroom reading. But if she could give me an additional book, I would turn around and read that one. And that would be my classroom reading. She was very helpful. She gave me a different novel, because she was not cognizant of the fact that she had someone that was dealing with the PTSD and the different emotional issues that the scars of war left.

And so when she gave me an additional book, I was able to read that book and do my assignment. And so I believe when we put all of these into account, I think it will aid in the success of any veteran that’s return back to school. Because they will feel that the university, the faculty, and the professors are on their side, and they are ruling to help them. And I believe just those little help will cause us to triumph in everything that we ascribe to do. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much, Dominique, for your responses. We’re going to move to Daniel. And I am going to go back, and I am going to ask Daniel to share with us his strategies to increase online student success.

The Road to a Successful & Accessible Program

DANIEL VEIT: Hello. Thank you. I would like to explain a little bit more about what had happened to me in the past. Whenever I first took a graduate class at Drexel University, the first week I really tried to keep up with what I was supposed to do with the reading, and I was pretty overwhelmed. And I will not be able to do lots of things, because of the voicing, the voice-over for the projects, listening to different audio-based types of context.

And I had to withdraw. I went ahead and dropped the class, and I didn’t want to pay for that. And then I’d left. I’d decided to leave, but the person in the Office of Disability Services contacted me and really did want me to come back and try again. Which was very positive for me, because if it weren’t for that person, I’m not really sure at Drexel that I would have come back. So within the next six months, I decided to try again.

And I took one class. One at a time– not two classes. And I tried to become a lot more familiar with the different types of accommodation. I really felt like I had to do a lot of trial and error throughout the course. For example, all my classes had different– it’s called team learning points. Which the students would have to provide a summary of what they learned in the first five weeks and the second five weeks and so forth. And my other classmates were able to just stand and talk in front of the microphone and give an explanation.

And at first, they provided me a written text. And I was like, oh my gosh, that’s going to require me a lot more work. Because students can just talk for 5 minutes, where it’s probably going to take me 45 minutes to type up the text. And I felt like that wasn’t really equal access. And so we came to an agreement that I would videotape myself signing in American Sign Language, send it to the disability services office, who would in turn send it to the interpreting agency. And they would have an interpreter do the voice-over for me.

And we did that for a while. And then one class professor emailed me and said, you know what? Something is off here. And that interpreter doesn’t seem to have the course concept, the jargon, the proper terminology. And so I was going to have to change, maybe talk directly to the interpreter. And so sometimes I had to add keywords to put down on my videotape to include when I was signing, just to make sure that the interpreter was using the appropriate terminology.

And to be a success, I had to do lots of clarification with the Disability Services Office and the interpreter. It was a lot of ongoing stuff. It was very helpful. The Disability Services Office had a very open mind. They were willing to work with me. And so I’ve heard of some other schools whose Office of Disability Services weren’t very open, and they were trying to save money. And I understand that they have budgetary constraints and accommodations can be expensive, but just sign language interpreters and captioning. But the deaf students like myself are going to need that type of accommodation to be successful in school.

Drexel University does a really good job of promoting and advertising different services for students that are going to be attending the university. And I would’ve liked to have seen, once I’m in the Office of Disabilities for the program, maybe to have given me a brief orientation. About how to self-advocate. Like what I need to say to the faculty, the professors at the beginning of the class, what my needs are. And by the fourth or fifth course that I took, I became a lot more comfortable doing that for myself. Knowing what to do, what to say to the professors. And all the faculty have been wonderful at Drexel University. They’ve been extremely supportive.

How Captioning Helps Disabled Students

Now for the captioning portion. Now, online, these days education is more and more audio-based content done through the PowerPoint with voice-overs or a lecture. Or sometimes you have to create a PowerPoint with a voice-over. It varies, but it’s occurring more and more. I have noticed, for example, that live classrooms– it’s really nice to have the captioning that’s already embedded there.

Like now, we’ve got the captioning on for this– the webinar– which is wonderful. But that way I can follow the PowerPoint and the captioning at the same time. It’s better than if I get a printed transcript of the text, and then I have to go back and read one and then click on another just to make sure that I’m on the right slide. And that requires a lot more work. So it’s nice to have the capability to have the captioning already on the videotape, so I can see it at the same time, and get the information on one part, rather than two separate units.

Now, I know you already know that technology continues to change. Every student with disabilities always had their own unique needs, and they’re all different. No one is the same. And I thing it’s really, really important for the Office of Disabilities and the students to know that they can see themselves as a pioneer. To try new things and to find something that is going to be successful and to work.

I didn’t put down on the PowerPoint slide, that portion, but I think it’s very important for the administration to be supportive of the students with disabilities in general. I’ve already heard of some wonderful stories through my thesis, where some institutions take on campus-wide initiatives to increase accessibility for students with disabilities. It’s very important to be at the top, not in the Office for Disabilities only.

Closing Comments by Disabled Students

KRISTEN BETTS: Wonderful. What we’re going to do is we’re going to ask the students– and I’m going to move to our next slide. We’re going to ask the students if they have any closing comments. And we’re also going to ask all of our online attendees if you can post your questions in the chat area, what we’re going to do is we have somebody who’s going to moderate the questions for us.

And they’ll ask– you can ask one of the panelists. You can ask all of the panelists whatever questions you may have. We’re very fortunate, because we have four dynamic students, all with different perspectives. And it’s a great opportunity to ask them questions that you may have. A couple of things to consider is we’re bringing this together and asking our students for closing comments. Really, the focus on universal design for learnings, clearly listening to all four of the students, this should be at the forefront.

And another thing that’s emerged listening to the students about being self-advocates. It’s critical that our students learn to serve as their best advocates, because they’re the ones that are taking the classes. It’s critical that they have the support not just in the Office of Disability Services, but throughout the campus. And in all of the cases where you’ve heard the students and the alumni talk about working with faculty, all of the faculty have been very accommodating.

And each of the panelists have also talked about how technology is constantly changing. And with that in mind, it’s going to be important that we’re as proactive as possible. So considering not just the faculty development with regard to technology and pedagogy and different areas related to instruction and learning in assessment, but trying to make sure that accessibility is part of the culture of higher education. In integrating accessibility in the faculty development from point of hiring and ongoing in continuous professional development is really in the best interest of all of our students.

So I’m going to ask– Daniel, do you have any closing comments before we move to the question and answer period?

DANIEL VEIT: No, no. I don’t have anything else. Go ahead.

KRISTEN BETTS: Alex? Anything you would like to share as we begin to wrap up and move to the questions?

ALEX COHEN: Certainly, just one closing comment. As you listened today, you’ve heard from four students who have four very different disabilities and therefore different needs. It’s an impossibility to appropriately wrap your head around all of the needs, as you look at what I need to be successful is completely different than what Daniel needs to be successful, or Henry, or Dominique.

But just to be aware and have the consideration of the efforts of social sustainability and being inclusive and understanding that anybody with disability is just one of your students. And they want the same experience as anyone else. And they just might need a little additional assistance from time to time to get there. And the students need to learn to be their best self-advocates. And professors and the university community as a whole will listen and hopefully provide the inclusive environment necessary to succeed.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you, Alex. Dominique, do you have any closing comments?

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: I think I’ll just caveat what everyone else has been saying. We can’t stress enough that it is incumbent upon each student to be their best advocate. Because we are the ones that’s affected by the disability, and we know what’s best for us. And so when we advocate for ourselves, we can interpret to the administrators. And then on the administrator’s side, we will just look for them to be supportive of what we bring to their attention. And I believe when you put those two pieces together, you will have the greatest success.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you, Dominique. Henry is also going to be taking questions via chat. So the chat area is open. And if you go into the chat area as I mentioned, you can type in your questions that you have for the students. [? Zerin, ?] I’m going to give the mic over to you now, so you can begin with the questions. We did ask each of the panelists to share different resources with our audience.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Any student with a disability to be successful. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: My apologies. The audio has cut out on my end, so I’m going to ask Dominique. Dominique, before we wrap up with the resources, for some reason there was a silent patch on my end, and I think I may have talked over you. If you can just summarize what you had said, my apologies again. For some reason, there was a patch on this end.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: What I said earlier, I said just to caveat what most of the panelists were saying, and the students we also need to advocate for ourselves. Because we are the ones that’s dealing with the disabilities. Therefore, we know exactly what needs we might have for the school to help us in. And with us verbalizing those needs, when the faculty or the administrator hears us, and they are willing to assist us in those areas. I believe when you put those two things together, it will set the atmosphere for the best successful environment for the students to be in. Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you so much. I appreciate you repeating that. In terms of the resources, we asked our panelists to provide us with a list of resources, as I was sharing. They’re right here. We encourage you– particularly, I know Mark Riccobono, who’s with the National Association of the Blind– he encourages institutions to reach out and look for partnerships. And it’s the same way with the National Association of the Deaf.

So you’ve got a list here to start with. And I would also encourage you to network. Penn State University, California State University system has wonderful resources. Many institutions have open access policies in terms of their resources. So there’s no reason to reinvent the wheel when you’ve got wonderful access that is out there. So networking is going to be critical. So therein, on that note, I am going to pass this over to you to wrap up and also to take our questions.

Q&A Which screen readers work best for different learning environments?

HOST: I have a few questions for Alex, mainly about screen readers. And one question is asking what he uses specifically for mathematical equations– what kind of screen readers. And one other– whether he uses a different one for different environments. And what his experiences are with video description, if any. And if he has noticed any increase in their availability. So I’ll hand it over to Alex.

ALEX COHEN: Certainly. Well, I use the Kurzweil system to read textbooks. Now, I use JAWS to read mathematical textbooks and to use SPSS, the statistical software. It’s the only system that reads that.

However, there is something important to mention– that often, these systems are compatible with screen readers. But from time to time, when the updates are done with the software, those updates then render that software incompatible. So for example, I actually have to use an older version of JAWS on a different operating system to work with the SPSS software that I’m currently using in my program. But it has been a great help with the statistics courses that I’m taking, because it does recognize the symbols. Obviously, some of the equations are still bananas if they’re being read to you, but it does definitely work better than some other screen readers.

Now, that being said, I really prefer ZoomText to surf the web and do research, because it doesn’t read absolutely everything on the screen. My visual needs might be different than somebody who is completely blind. I don’t need to have– I don’t to know everything that’s on the screen. So if you can imagine going into the CNN website or otherwise, it’s just bedlam. But really, those three systems in tandem have worked wonders for me.

With videos, sometimes what I have noticed is with videos, the controls are not accessible. So the pause functions or fast forward or rewind functions just don’t really work. A lot of the times, the instructional controls don’t have whenever embedded text is necessary or recognizable by screen readers. Hopefully that answered your question.

Which colors trigger TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) symptoms?

HOST: Thank you, Alex. And we can receive further questions or comments through Twitter as well, so feel free to continue the discussion there, as well as the comments. Another question. A few of the questions were bout Dominique, and what colors– because he talked about some colors triggering migraines and being uncomfortable. I think he answered that by saying bright colors and backgrounds. Am I right, Dominique? Is that anything else you would like to add to that?

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Yes. Apart from just the bright colors that will trigger the TBI symptoms, one thing that I found to be helpful for those that might experience migraines or TBI symptoms is to wear dark glasses. And that’s something that the university allows me to do, just to wear dark glasses when I’m in a classroom setting. That way, the sunlight doesn’t glare. Or when I’m using my computer at home, I’ll put a screen shield over it to dim everything, so that it doesn’t trigger a migraine or TBI response.

KRISTEN BETTS: [? Zerin ?], I have two links that I’ll add in the moderator area as well– two articles from referring journals that may be of assistance.

What is the best closed caption service for online video?

HOST: Thanks, Kristen. And let me see. There are quite a few questions about what is the best closed caption service, but I don’t think that would be something our students would be able to answer, unless I’m wrong. Has anyone had an experience with a great instant closed captioning service or software? That’s for all of you panelists.

DANIEL VEIT: Yeah, this is Daniel here. Really, I don’t have a specific service in mind, but I want to point out that California State University decided to sign a contract with a caption service, that part of that was with a discounted rate on captioning services. And that helped save money, as opposed to each institution signing different contracts. It would keep the cost low for the captioning.

And that would be nice if all private companies would go ahead and provide captioning with their video. National Association for the Deaf– or NAD– also has a lawsuit going on suing Netflix and CNN, because they were not providing captioning. And right now, CNN does not have any captioning. It’s a little ridiculous right now, for this time of day. The court decided to rule in favor of the ADA and providing captioning. And the physical businesses would continue.

But really, that’s just one of the first baby steps. In my opinion, there’s so much more that still has to be done. And it should already have automatic captioning. But the burden should be put on the university to provide captioning services for the students.

Which text-based description is best for screen readers? Alt text or plain text?

HOST: Thanks, Daniel. Since we are on you, there’s a question for you. It is whether you prefer alt text form, or text-based description. Or is it a matter of what the content is within the actual method and both work well? Shall I repeat the question?

DANIEL VEIT: I’m not really sure of what you mean, what the differences between the alt text and the text-based instruction, or description?

HOST: Text-based description. This is about the images, it says. “Does Daniel prefer alt text form, or text-based description. Or is it a matter of what the content is within the actual method and work well?” I’m reading the question as it this. Well, we’ll just skip it if we don’t have an answer for that. I have a general question for all the panelists–


HOST: Do– sorry?

DANIEL VEIT: I think that question is for Alex. I think the question is Alex, because it has to do with alt text. Although there may have been some confusion, because both were talking about voice-over PowerPoints. Because for both students, voice-over PowerPoints are a challenge for different reasons. But Alex, if you could talk about alt text, because we’ve dealt with this with presentations we’ve put together.

ALEX COHEN: Sure. What occurs with the screen reader is it recognizes where– for the most part, the one that I like the best, ZoomText– recognizes where your mouse is. So for example, when you’re using different software packages, if you hover over an icon, you might see that the words come up. And then the alt text comes up, and the screen reader will read that. That also happens a lot with photos. So if photos are put on a presentation and alt text is used, if you hover over that photo, the screen reader will read that alt text and will describe what is on that photo or that graph or whatever the image may be.

It is extremely helpful with icon buttons, because otherwise I can’t see the icons. But I can hear like, OK, that’s the Print button. That’s what I need. So alt text is very important. And I would encourage anybody who’s putting together some kind of presentation or course material, if they’re not certain about the best method how to embed the alt text images, that is something that any university’s Office of Disability Resources should be able to advise them upon.

I don’t know if that was helpful.

KRISTEN BETTS: Thank you, Alex.

What do the students think of library resources and major databases? Are they accessible?

HOST: Thank you, and another question for all of our panelists. I would say, do any of you have concerns about library resources such as the major databases, EBSCOhost, or ProQuest? In terms of accessibility, I would assume.

ALEX COHEN: What happened– our library has one of the best online resources that I’ve ever seen, really. Between the level of knowledge, LexisNexis, and the myriad of databases they have, and the amount of ebooks available. It’s questionable what would occur if I actually walked into our library and checked out a book and said, OK, how do we make this accessible? Because the truth is that the library doesn’t like it when you take their books to ODR, and they have to hack up the binding and scan the book for you. So that’s an area that might still be up to question.

But in terms of the online resources, what occurs is you go in and you get the article, and you get it in a PDF format. Now, depending upon whether that PDF has gone through an optical scan processor or not results in whether or not a screen reader could read a certain type of PDF. But at least at Drexel, what occurs is I will download a great deal of files, PDF files, and I’ll send them over to your Disability Resources. And then they will convert them to me in the Kurzweil format that I am most comfortable with.

In terms of ebooks, ebooks are also PDF format. Some screen readers, as I mentioned, do very well the PDF, and others do not. It all really depends on what you’re using. And there’s a particular type of PDF. But our library resources have been wonderful for me. And our Office of Disability Resources has been very expedient in returning materials that I need.

HOST: Thanks, Alex. Again, anybody else want to pitch in on this about the use of library? I guess not.

Let’s see. We have gone through the colors. And we have a comment from a faculty, I would say, who says he or she had a deaf student in a class. I’m teaching online who dropped the course, I’m sure due to no closed captioning available in class videos. The school [INAUDIBLE] has design teams that create our course material and post that material to the course type in my path, which is Blackboard.

How can I make my students’ experiences better? Why is captioning is necessary?

Is there something I can do that will make it better for such students that are deaf or even blind. So I guess the question is, what could a faculty member do if no closed captioning were available for deaf and blind students. How could he or she help them in the absence of closed captioning?

DANIEL VEIT: Hi, this is Daniel. In my opinion, you should have captioning no matter what. It’s the students’ right to be able to have accommodations. The law sometimes prohibits students from getting accommodations necessary for education. But they should have had captions in the first place. As the faculty who has contact, you need to contact the Office of Disability Services and make sure that the appropriate accommodations are made for the deaf students to have the captioning on the videos.

And there’s no other way around it. That’s pretty much it.

How can we set performance expectations for students with disabilities?

HOST: Thanks, Daniel. And one other comment from another faculty member. “I believe the last time I had hearing impaired students, the interpreter coordinator told me to expect the same from them as hearing students. Is that possible? One had partial hearing and the other one none. The one with partial did much better. Signing is like shorthand, so I believe they were shortchanged on class content and writing ability. What do our students think about this?”

DANIEL VEIT: I do agree with the interpreter, needed to be having– you definitely need to have the same expectations of all students. It doesn’t really matter. There should be no bias. As far as– I wanted to point out that sign language is not just a shorthand of English. Really, American Sign Language and English are very, very different. American Sign Language and English both have their each set of grammar rules. And sometimes there’s no direct translation from English to ASL and vice versa.

For example, maybe this one student would consider English as a second language and they struggle with the written word. And you would refer them to go to a writing center for tutoring studies and additional support. And that would do for any other student. And as a deaf person, I won’t appreciate it if they lower– a professor would lower their expectations for me. I believe that they should expect the same out of me as they do for other students.

What should instructional designers be aware of when designing for accessibility?

HOST: Thanks, Daniel. And another question is from an instructional designer. “I’m an instructional designer. When designing our courses at Northwestern, we try to be as accommodating as possible. Everything gets transcribed. What would you suggest would be the top aspects of course design to consider when designing courses without faculty. Also, what would you love to see in courses that you just don’t see? What’s lacking?”

ALEX COHEN: –question, because this is such new medium, and as technology advances and you can do so much more, the learning platforms become more innovative. I took my– I completed my master’s program in 2010. So I can only imagine how much better– or hopefully how much better it’s gotten in the past three years. But all nobody– as I mentioned earlier, nobody wants a boring vanilla presentation. You need robust content, and it’s got to be fun. And it’s got to speak to the student. Unfortunately, sometimes these rotten disabilities get in the way of that.

But for example, with my situation– with the video, I enjoyed listening to the professor speak over the PowerPoint. And what was helpful to me is when the actual copy of the PowerPoint would be also made available so that I could go back and then screen reader would read that, or I would have access to the notes.

But it’s just one of those things where disabilities are all so different, and the needs are so broad. How could you design something for Daniel and I that would really be thrilling to both of us? And the answer is I’m not really sure, because each one of our needs are so individual.

HOST: Thank you so much. Go ahead.

Who has the responsibility of educating professors on disabilities? The institution or the individual?

KRISTEN BETTS: There was a question for Dominique that was asked. And it said, “Dominique mentioned that professors need to understand what students with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are experiencing. Who do you believe the responsibility should fall on? Should it be the student or the institution?” And so Dominique, if you can speak to that, because I know that’s something that we spent a lot of time talking about. And I think it’s really important, as you said, to really take a leadership role out there and work with our returning vets to be as open as possible. So Dominique, I’m going to pass this over to you.

I don’t think your mic is turned on, Dominique. If you press on the top– I think you turned it off just to mute it.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Yes, I heard only a portion of that. You blanked out for a minute. Could you repeat the last portion, please? Thank you.

KRISTEN BETTS: Sure. I think it’s probably the bandwidth. That’s what happened earlier with you, so my apologies again. The question was, who should the responsibility fall on? You had mentioned students that are coming back with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. And so should that fall on the student? How do faculty become aware of this? You’ve been a great advocate. You’ve talked about this. But for students who are more reluctant, what can be done? Because clearly faculty want to assist students with this.

DOMINIQUE WILLIAMSON: Like I said earlier, I think number one, the priority falls upon the student to be the biggest advocate. But also, I believe that the faculty should also have an understanding of what Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is. Because if the faculty does not have an understanding of it, if I bring it to the forefront and you still have no understanding of it, it’s not going to allow the need to be met. But with the combination of the student being boisterous and the faculty having information knowledge of the symptoms, I believe it will set the environment for the student to learn best and for the faculty to assist the student best in the learning process.

KRISTEN BETTS: Excellent response. Thank you so much. [? Zerin? ?]

Is it possible to design courses for everyone and still use Web 2.0 tools?

HOST: Well, we need to wrap up, but I have just two more short questions. One is about testing. What kind of testing tools they can recommend to panels. Can you recommend if any? And the other one is about the use of Web 2.0 tools. “We have online faculty designers seeking to make course materials accessible by everyone. In order to design for learning, we sometimes fall into the lowest common denominator approach, in which we incorporate no media, multimedia, nor any Web 2.0 tools.” And whether this is acceptable or not, or is this right, and your opinion on that. And after these, I will have to wrap it up, because we don’t want to go over our time.


KRISTEN BETTS: It sounds like, [? Zerin, ?] there were two questions. The last question focusing on looking at universal design, that the common denominator is sometimes to just take technology out altogether. And so what are the thoughts of the panelists. And I say that just so our panelists have time to think our response to that. Alex?

ALEX COHEN: Certainly. I would not take out technology. Because as innovation progresses and the use of adaptive technology progresses, at some point, in many cases now, the two have met up wonderfully. So I would not to take out technology in any way. I would just continue to try and promote as much [INAUDIBLE] and collaboration between the two as possible to make it to make it compatible. Make it robust, and most importantly, make it worthwhile.

KRISTEN BETTS: Daniel, any comments?

HOST: Not at this time, I guess. And the last one was about if panels had any recommendations for testing services. If there are any input on this, I would like to get it. If not, I’m going to wrap this up.


All right. Well, with this, we are actually three minutes over our time. I would like to thank Dr. Betts for her efforts and time for the organization of this webinar, and she’s really an inspiration. And I also want to thank our panelists for taking the time to be part of this. And also of course many thanks to all of you who joined us today and enriched our discussions with your questions and comments.

Just as a reminder, all participants from today’s webinar will be receiving a follow up email, and it will contain a recording link. And we will also be following up with a survey to get your input and feedback regarding this webinar. Your comments are extremely helpful, and we appreciate your taking the time to complete these surveys.

And I would also like to take this opportunity to highlight some upcoming Sloan-C events in case you might be interested in them. Our workshop schedule for 2013 is available at our website, and we have two more webinars on this series. The next one is on March 14, and the last one is on April 23. We hope you join us on those as well. And our next conference, Sixth Annual International Symposium– Emerging Technologies for Online Learning will be housed in Las Vegas, Nevada, on April 9-11. We also have a virtual option for those who will not be able to go there in person.

With that, I want to thank you once again for joining us. And we hope to see you in other Sloan-C Institute Events. You can find more information on all these, and more on Sloan-C Institute website, along with the recording for this webinar. Have a nice rest of the day. Thank you.